What’s Size Got to Do With It?

March 24, 2010

With all due respect to Tina Turner, what does size have to do with it anyway? Why the heck do gay guys suffer so much penis envy? Or why do they all advertise that they want to meet super hung guys? What’s the advantage of a huge schlong? Not that they aren’t wonderful to look at. Don’t get me wrong. But a big dick seems highly impractical in most situations. Sort of like fins on a ’57 Caddy… impressive and attention getting, but essentially non-functional. (All you Hunters ask your Daddies to explain this to you).

In recent weeks I have been reflecting on this question. Yes, I am probably going off the deep end in my dotage. But it seems to me that this fascination with size is self defeating. And I wonder: So what’s the big deal with big dicks?

As we all know guys come in all different sizes and flavors… as do their penises (or is that peni? or is that a type of pasta you get in the health food store?). There must be some kind of statistical study that shows guys range from a delectable hors d'œuvre size four inches to a throat clogging ten plus inches. Sidebar: I have been tempted to answer advs from guys who claim no gag reflex… but figure for me, it is probably a wasted talent. Second Sidebar: George Carlin famously joked he couldn’t understand why calling someone a cocksucker was a nasty comment. He thought it should be a form of high praise.

I digress. The real question: What is the value of a big penis? From an evolutionary standpoint, perhaps the length gave some of our prehistoric ancestors an advantage of being able to get their sperm further upstream without needing to shoot so far. That argument doesn’t hold, first because there are so many of us short guys around. If it was an evolutionary thing then all of us would be hung. And second, if you haven’t seen the genitals of a gorilla, you would be surprised. Talk about “teeny winey.” It is enough to make a straight guy blush. Don’t ask how I know this. Smirk.

More to the point. How do these guys sleep on their stomach? It must be terribly uncomfortable to have to deal with that sausage amongst the pillows. And don’t get me started on skimpy undies and tight jeans. Again, lovely to look at but truly uncomfortable. And not to be too, too personal, but how do they sit on the throne without getting themselves wet? Brings new meaning to the term “dipstick.” Yuck.

What really got me throwing a hissy fit on this topic is the constant bombardment of junk emails claiming a miracle cure to add three to four inches in six weeks if I would simply pony up (or should I say stallion up?) the coins to buy the product. Also, some supposed medical doctors are pitching a penis lengthening procedure in which they cut some of the muscles at the top base of the penis that allows the member to drop a bit lower and therefore look longer.

Because I am on a first name basis with my urologist (I insist on calling any guy by his first name if he needs to examine my prostate), I asked him about all this. First, the problem with surgery is more often than not it results in reduced capability to get and keep an erection. For younger guys this might not seem like a horror, but Daddies everywhere are plagued with fear about this issue. And the magic pills can in fact sometimes work, but only for a short period while being taken and can have weird side effects…such as lumpy results. The hapless guy is left with a deformed looking penis. What’s less appealing that a lumpy cock? Well, any cock in a storm, I suppose. Save your money and take your friends out for pizza and beer. You might get lucky.

My darling grandmother use to say: “It’s not the size of the ship, but the motion of the ocean.” Yes, Granny was randy. She was right, of course. Size doesn’t matter. It’s knowing what you are doing with it that scores points. (did I just say “score”?) And finally, here is the million dollar question. Why is it that so many super hung guys are bottoms? But that’s a topic for another rant. For now, just give me a guy with a nice, pleasant mouthful, say about six inches.

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Comments

well, one reason might be that men tend to be visual creatures. big dicks look great!

some of us are more interested in thick dicks than long ones. they match the bears they're attached to.

Brother i so agree with you when you meet som one you like and
go to bed do you rap your arms around there dick when you go to sleep or there ever so nice body what ever makes one happy

larry

This is a stupid summary question? And written by a lazy cocksucker or an "Oral Only" gay man, in which case his 'article' doesn't apply to an entire gay population just an aspect of it...

Large penises FILL HOLES better than small ones! (especially holes that have been bottoming for 40 years!) Like women who have had children, muscles STRETCH and STRETCH OUT...even when one keeps a good sphincter toned, HAVING it stretched beyond limits is a DESIRABLE sensation to many a bottom...small guys just can't DO that, sorry but it is FACT!

Large penises (and the men who use them) seem to be able to find and stimulate a prostate gland better than men with small penises!

Contrary to the many bottoms whose pleasure it is to just lay/stand there and "let" a guy stick it in and hump away, the REAL bottoms of the world know that participation is paramount and the more there is to squeeze the more likely it is to press aginst that little (hopefully) gland that makes all the magic...and for those of you (both tops and bottoms) who don't have a clue what gland I'm referring to...THAT'S why you ask stupid questions like "what's the big deal about big dicks"!! That, and/or you have small penises and don't know how to use 'em because there ARE ways a smaller dicked guy CAN compensate, most just don't bother to educate themselves.

I have little more to say other than you are very correct.

Thank you for this reply. Only a small dick person would not understand why a big dick is sometimes needed. Even women complain about not achieving orgasm, because the guys dick is too small. How do you fuck a bottom with a 4 inch dick when he is use to a fist?

eh woman achieve orgasm because of clitoral stimulation which is on the outside

Darlin, If you think a woman' clitoris is on the "outside" YOU need to find an encyclopedia or a 10th grade health book and do some RESEARCH and educate yourself!!

Just, John

Are all size queens horribly bitter and angry? Tsk. Tsk.

Just because LarryinCHicago says someone is bitter and angry doesn't make it true! Only people who don't like truth, facts, and other people's opinions use attack tactics...

MANY guys have been writing me about my response to the "size blog" for advice (sorry Larryinchicago, YOU advise them YOUR way and I'll advise them MY way, get used to it it's the way the world works...we're all in it, we all share it and not everyone is going to agree)

So here's what I'm talleing them:

Happy to oblige...As I say, it's how a man uses what he's got that makes him good in bed (or in the shower or in the tent or on the kitchen counter). Size is REALLY in a man's head...and there ARE ways to fill that hole even when you DON'T have a big dick...IF you KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING your bottom will FEEL like you have a giant dick!! One way or another it's up to YOU to make that happen...Communication is the key and there are many ways to communicate...some guys like to talk and that's always easiest because you can find out exactly what your bottom wants...does he like a slow push in or a long steady ram? Does he like you put the head in and tease it out a bit first before giving him a little more? Then does he like it little by little until it's balls deep or does he want to get teased with the head then shoved in ful length...getting him to talk about it during foreplay can be very exciting for both partners. But, some guys are shy or don't like to talk, they just like to get taken so you have to feel your way...it's rather like playing an instrument really...if you're paying attention to HOW your bottom is REACTING to what you're doing at any given time, really paying attention...you'll know what to do next...watch him as you tease the head in, you'll know when he's ready for the whole thing or if he wants it little by little! Remember that gasps don't necessarily mean somethings wrong..."Ow" and "wait" and open eyes while sitting up means something's wrong...listen for the good gasps, watch for the eyes rolling and the head going back...GOOD signs...and ALWAYS try to find his prostate!!! That's the MAGIC spot!!! Look it up in a medical encyclopedia online of you have to familiarize yourself with where to find it but ALWAYS try to find his....MOST botoms like foreplay and THAT's the perfect time to find a prostate...finger him first but don't just poke him and prod him...EXPLORE that cavity area just inside the anus!!! LOOK for that gland!!! And when you find it....GENTLY MASSAGE IT...and PAY ATTENTION TO HIS REACTION!!!! He'll more than likely go all moany or jerk with pleasure but he will react SOMEHOW and you will know when you've found it...now here is the biggest hint...IF you can find that spot with the head of your cock and keep rubbing it with your cockhead...you can make a guy cum that way no matter what size your dick is!! If your cock's head isn't big enough or your cock just isn't shaped right or you can't get him into just the righ position...tTRY SLIPPING A FINGER IN THERE WITH YOUR DICK AND MASSAGING THAT MAGIC GLAND WHILE YOU SLOWLY FUCK HIM AND WATCH HIM TURN TO TO JELLY (No matter HOW "butch" he thinks he is!!!)
Take the time tho to find out what he likes! Does he like to be taken? Does he wanna be "made love to"? Does he like to be humped fast and furious? Does he like getting it nice and slow. Find out if his nipples are sensitive and if they are suck 'em while you fuck him! Position can mean alot...try a few...try sliding your arms under his armpits and pulling him towrd you by the shoulders...try one arm under his neck and the other under his waist...hold his arms down by the wrists or grab him by the ankles...one position change many bottoms don't expect and usually love sounds complicated but it isn't...you're in between his legs...grab his right knee with both hands and turn him slightly like he's gonna roll onto his side until the back of his right knee is just to the left of your face and bent over your left shoulder...slide your right hand further down his thigh while holding his knee in place on your shoulder so that his left leg is straight out in between your legs and his right leg is over your shoulder...now get into that hole DEEP!!! GREAT position (and a good one for finding and massaging a prostrate with your cock)....when you're fucking a guy on his stomach, get both arms under his waist and move him to the rythm you want him in, get him workin it WITH you! Lying on top of his back is a good position to get your arms under his pits and your hands on his shoulders to pull him into you too!!!
Whatever you do, FUCK HIM...don't lay there like a beached whale and expect him to do all the work unless he makes that move and pushes YOU into it, then you've got a poer bottom on your hands who likes to take control and you can realx and let him ride you but until then...confidence is the way to a bottom's heart...through his asshole of course!

Hope this helps in some way. Let me know!!

Have fun and play safely!
John

John,

thanks for the insight YOU are soo right....as a 58 yo guy and been with a few guys....from 3" dicks to horse hung....communication and knowing how to please a guy is essential...some guys with smaller dicks can really make a man crank a load better than a huge dicked guy relying on his dick to do all the work...If the chemistry is good between the two....size takes a back seat (pun) in the sack.......
Sometimes some of us DO have the desire for a big dick for whatever reason and some like them smaller to each his own and FUN is what its all about ! (SAFE)

No but their boyfriends are. LOL

Bitter, bitter, bitter... Angry, angry, angry... Why so, ACocktaker? Why so? Have a cocktail and relax.

Gentlemen, this member (pun intended) can vouch for ACocktaker's expertise in this area. BTW we met on this site!

Well he must have "hit" a nerve with you , I agree with the writer , many , many bottoms advertise how "hung" they , WTF difference does it make you're a BOTTOM , that would be like a top advertising how "tight" they are , and I beg to differ on the "hung" men can hit the magical gland better , hell I'm no horse and I've never had a problem "hitting" that gland.... You just have to know what you're feeling for :)

Although it's not the size of the ship that counts, remember, it takes a long time to cross that ocean in a rowboat.

Congrats to Russ and his comments . Its an obsession with some gay guys ... you have to be well hung or its no go.
His comments are the best ever posted on a gay site. His comments are realistic/ sensible. Once again, thanks for common sense!

I agree completely. Though a controversial and lengthy subject indeed, it is one that is so supercilious and superficial when it comes down to actually being in a committed, loving relationship. I once heard this little ditty " you don't have to hit rock bottom as long as you can blow out the sides, " for whatever that is worth.

I actually have a big fetish with large ball sacs. So big dicks? Well - nice but not essential.
Size - if it is over 5.5 inches or over ... I'm happy but when my last partner jumped into bed with me and I saw 11 inches long, with foreskin, with super fat girth - I freaked! How soon can I ask for his hand in marriage!?

It unraveled like an anaconda - I never knew he had that thing! - honest! Friends 2 years before this happened ....

I threw up my hands to Jesus and thanked Buddha for the great karma of my good fortune.
Best several years of my life - and you can fall in love with a rich man or a poor man
so why not say - you can fall in love with a man with a big dick as easily as any other size.

It's the heart organ first. And if the dick dangles lower then you expected - icing on the cake!

Never met a guy that didn't love the hyper masculinity of big muscles, big dicks -
we are suckers for BIG anything. Size does matter. And a good man knows that
the heart and mind of a good man is easier to love when a maintained body is attached.
If the bod has a package from Santa that groans when the pants drop - who would
ever say GO HOME? So if you want only sex and a big dick - screw guilt, go for it.
And understand we guys with dongs may say NO.

I dare any to say - if you fell in love and discovered your new love had a whopper you'd turn him away. NO ONE! It's just I don't go hunting for big ONLY. If a big dick hunter comes after me for mostly to get at and ride my 8.5 inches - I say thanks - no. They treat me like a life support system attached to a drug. It's just my thoughts. Happy we are talking honestly.

I am pretty average and thats not 8 inches. (btw i refuse to measure) several regular bottoms and some "size queens" have told me the same thing. I am not the biggest tool in the shed but damn i get the job done. I can think of three that actually cum without touching themselves while taking advantage of the tool so that blows the idea about not being able to get off . bottom line (no pun intended) if your into it your into it
a bigger problem for me is over stretched hole and toothy head

I totally agree with you, Thick is much better, who wants a long dick that can tickle the back of your throat from going in behind?

Thick is def a favorite of time, feels better both in the hand, the mouth, and anal sex is just better :)

what did Tina say though?Sorry,i will have to read this another time as it is my bed time now.
BTW,i would prefer a thick one than a long one,when it comes to size...

Dr Oz on one of his shows said that for every 25#s a man looses he gains 1/2 inch in penis size....If this were true I would have at least a 20 foot dick..SO Even Dr Oz is Hung up on Cock Size and he is also WRONG..Grandma was RIGHT ..More Than A Mouthful Is Wasted....that is unless you want to throw it over your shoulder and Burp It.

I find that total bottoms have the biggest dicks. I find a size proportionat dick more appealing tho

Interest way to set it, but I am not why you wasted your time on a subject that no matter how much effort you put on, most men are not really going to change their mind.
If you like a big dick, it is because either you like the sensation or because sicologically it produces an pleasurable on you the mere idea of a huge dick in your ass as part of the domination that involves the fact of being fucked.
I particularly prefer huge dicks and I am not gonna change my mind about it. But, I have fallen in love with a man that was seriously average and I needed to compromise about that. We are rational animals and sometimes we will sacrifice some pleasures for additional, longer and more satisfying ones.
The craving for big cocks is like your temperament and it is not gonna change since you were born with it, but as personality and behavior you can control your impulses and grow.
The only thing I can say is that you cannot understimate a guy just because he doesn't have a big penis, you may be losing the chance of your life to meet your soulmate.
Anyway for hook ups I will remain asking only horsehung guys and good luck the rest.

I could care less about dick size........I just like pretty!

i definitely agree with you

pretty is superficial and temporary, stupid goes to the bone.

Just enjoy the fact that you have one between your legs and use it as much as possible--time is fleeting and sooner or later even the mightest fall!!

Size doesn't matter; until it matters.

I too have wondered what the obsession with big dick is. I have come to the conclusion that is all part and parcel of the superficial nature of the gay community. I blame most of it on the porn industry. For those of you old enough to remember, back in the 1970's, the stars of the porn films were more your average guy next door type of people. Then along comes Falcon and to a lesser extent, Bel Ami, where the stars are shaved, trimmed, plucked, and buffed to perfection, with perfect bodies, round asses, and huge dicks. Have you ever seen a Falcon flick where any of the actors were "average" ? If you have, let me know!! Here we are 30 years later, and gay men have been brainwashed from this never ending visual assault. More gay men go to gyms than to bars these days, all trying to achieve that elusive perfect porn star body. Pity those who fail to achieve that goal; they just don't measure up. No pun intended. We are now at a stage where it seems that only the physical matters. Perfect body, perfect ass, and big dick. I guess those are the only attributes that matter when it comes to hook ups. I look forward to the day, when the intangible attributes, like honesty, integrity, strength of character, compassion, respect, and kindness become just as important as the physical attributes.

I rather get dicked by an average but skillfull one....it is the motion of the ocean not the size of the seas...

Unless of course we're talking about a dinghy in the Pacific Ocean...

TO ME . . .SIZE DOES NOT MATTER. " WE ALL HAVE AN ASS HOLE "
TO ME . . .BOTTOMS USUALLY HAVE "BIG" COCKS A + THEY CAN GET ANAL AND ORAL AT THE SAME TIME.
IT ALL BOILS DOWN TO. . . HOW YOU! KNOW TO PLEASE WITH YOUR WONDERFUL COCK !
IT'S A BEAUTIFUL THING !!!!
BE SAFE !

I think it's just a personal thing. I like 'em large because they look cool, are fun to hold, a challenge to deep throat, and once I'm relaxed and they're all the way up my ass, I like the feeling of fullness.... other guys may just find smaller cocks sexy.

All good points, Being a bttm I really like the girth of a mans cock, not the length. The feeling of having a fat cock in my ass, feels fantastic. The length has never been that comfortable.

I love the varied size/shapes of penises.... but what really gets me going is an incredibly hard and erect penis.... where it is so erect that the head shines and is a deep red with the blood flow.... typically, these have been in the 5-6 inch range...I am oral and those are my favorite popsicles... btw, if any of you fit the bill, then cum and fit this Bill....lol

Obviously you have never been fucked by a small penis that keeps hitting the same spot, causing pain,irritation,tearing and bleeding; or been fucked by a huge penis and received true pleasure from deep anal massage. Experiencing anal orgasms, which I have many,many times is quite an intense feeling, and achieving multiple orgasms from a deep anal massage, without touching my own penis, which at times wasn't even hard, is also very intense.Granted many well hung men, both straight & gay, have no idea how to fuck, the same applies to most men for that matter. I truly love when a huge,hard penis is in me, Yes,many times it may hurt going in,because you're afraid of the size, but have you ever seen the size of the waste matter that comes out during a bowel movement. And many men ,when you tell them to relax, really don't understand: You have to bear down like you're going to expel waste from your bowels. Yes, I'll admit I can't deepthroat the huge ones, but I try as best I can,cause it turns me on and I really want to try and please my partner. If I'm strictly looking to blow a guy,I prefer between 7-8 inches, which I can accomodate quite nicely,even deep throating ( I used to let my late partner fuck my throat). As far as beauty or good looks, which are also in the eye of the beholder, most men, straight or gay, with gorgeous looks normally have an average 5 - 7 inch penis size. I had an employer who once saw my penis, (which depending on how turned on I am is 7-8 inches, & no, I am not gorgeous), spread the word around our company that I was horse hung; which goes to show size is also in the eye of the beholder. And most men with truly huge cocks are normally less than average looking, can you say : Johnny Holmes? Ron Jeremy? They both turned me on,I like their looks,but many men & women I know,considered both of them butt ugly.1970's porn was also filled with a lot of young & pretty twinks, most with long hair, not to mention many [filtered word] children.And most of those average looking guys were hung pretty big back then,including my personal favorites Barry (8 inches) a.k.a Barry Hoffman a.k.a. Jeff Reardon;Duke (10 Inches) Richard,quite versatile,who had the best tan line and could fuck like there's no tomorrow, and who had a hot,beefy ass that saw a lot of action from cocks equally as big .Yes,the studios, Falcon,Colt,Bel Ami, Channel 1 Releasing,Catalina,etc are partly to blame, but so is Hollyweird in general. Back in the 80's during the Reagan - Bush era, you very rarely saw hot, hairy men on television or in the the movies: the whole youth movement of the 1960's where everyone's afraid of growing older: "DON'T TRUST ANYONE OVER THIRTY"; "Wild In The Streets" (check out Shelley Winters, claiming she's under 30) where everyone over thirty was put in a concentration camp and psyched out on L.S.D. and S.T.P.; Or in the 1970's :"Cristina Ferarre" (John DeLorean's ex-wife) in MGM's "Impossible Years" to "Lola Albright" : Face it mom, you're just afraid of growing OLD!; "Logan's Run" where you're put to death around your thirtieth birthday; "Liz Taylor" in "Ash Wednesday" gets plastic surgery to try and save her marriage. What it really comes down to as far as I'm concerned, is if you truly love your partner and want to please him, size shouldn't matter.But don't bitch about those of us who truly love big ones.

I do have a big thick cock, and I've asked the question myself of the Bottoms who I play with. For some the attraction is the challenge of taking larger meat. Others tell me I hit spots that have never been hit before and they enjoy being filled so completely by another man. I am a total Top, so I can only pass on the comments of my talented Bottom buds...

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?????

my only complaint is how men represent themselves. For example, a man may choose "extra large" as a descriptor on this site for their dick, but in their profile text admit to a mere 7.5 inches. A mouthful, yes. Large, yes. But hardly "extra". I'd save that adjective for my fuck-buddy with the thick, uncut 9" dick. Yes, we've measured. I have a gag reflex, but he's not interested in my mouth anyway. (by the way, despite my urgings to change it, he lists himself here as "large".)
And sorry men, if you say you're a total top, but you show up with a small dick, it's simply not going to happen. Small dicks hurt.

I say let everybody shine with their gifts. If you have a big dick ....by all means show it. If you have a hot body show it....if you have a full head of hair comb it ..or not....if you have a great mind...tell us what you think....but don't discount anyone with one of these qualities..or if they are lucky a few. from someone with a big dick

Thank you! We all have our likes and dislikes and it is just something you have to deal with. No one will ever be able to explain the why which is the reason it is such an annoying question. As you said Clayartist, let everybody shine. Focus on what you can offer and be happy.

What's the deal with the not-so-suble shaming of Gay guyz who happen to like big dicks? You wouldn't be that concerned about Str8 guyz who happen to like big tits and plush butts on gurls and women... so, why the concern over big dicks and the Gay guyz who happen to like big dicks? Seems to me that it's merely a personal 'ideal' for those who like big dicks (or big tits and plush butts), and really should be more of a 'no big deal' to those who don't, or say that they don't lol. To each his own, I suppose-- but let there be peace amongst Our Tribe! One more thing, and you really must trust me, and many many others in this: ur sooo very wrong about big dicks being 'highly impractical' and 'essentially non-functional' : )so very very wrong....

I am intrigued by the many differing takes on this subject. I can only speak from experience, but I have...um..."a friend" who worked in the escorting trade for awhile with, what the textbooks call, an average sized member and did quite well. He was praised for his knowledge, control and talent by his clients. "Average" is considered small to tiny to the size-obsessed gay man.
Small dicks don't have to hurt. It's the technique of the man attached to the dick that makes the difference. Huge and hard isn't always all that comfortable, I am told. Just whip out your encyclopaedia or look up the male physiognomy online and you'll see that the prostate - that fantastic gift of a male g-spot - is closer to the entrance/sphincter muscle than anything to which a massive member can have access.
Yeah, they look good - HELL, they look great - but those of us without natural mega-endowments can make their partners squeal, shiver, shake, yell and eventually cum buckets with a little research, care and experience.

And your point....when you come right down to it, a big cock is nice to see and to play with. Everybody is curious about the other's cock, size, shape, etc. Let he who is without envy, throw the first cock ring!

LOL..!...LOL..!...LOL..!

All l I can say to all of this is ..I hope yall are doing your kegels when you are taking those massive cocks or you could be looking to be in [filtered word]s in the near future. I dont find a man that poops on the sidewalk as being "appealing" unless you are someone into "scat" I have a decent sized "piece" ..not too big ..not too small and from what i have heard from a lot of bottoms..they say that alot of guys with big peckers have nothing else to offer. I think the stigma around huge members is over -rated and yeah they are pretty but I wouldn't want to have the hole that its gonna be entering ..he he. Oh and by the way..these guys that want big peckers are just BIG thinkers and I would almost bet if they did get a huge one they would run home crying to momma. I find that guys with overly huge peckers usually have overly swelled heads! A man who is a awesome lover doesn't have to necessarily have a big member. He just has to know what hes doing and be good at it!

Yeah, I give some credence to the agruments given for liking big cocks, but why not enjoy the more average cocks and consider it a bonus when you happen across a big one vs. sending the message that only a big cock will suffice?! There's a lot of good lovin' to be had from guys with average-to-large cocks...why will only a HUGE cock do? I'm often struck with the thought that those who are satisfied by nothing less than a huge cock must have asses that have dated a football player's forearm and are so stretched out that anything less than huge get lost in that Holland Tunnel.

As for oral, not all of us were blessed with a big mouth like (anyone remember) Martha Ray? Put a big cock in my mouth and there's almost no way you're not gonna get acquainted with some teeth.

Sure, a big thick cock, all nice and veiny is a pleasure to see and touch. But beyond that, I'm perfectly happy with average (and some of those sweet smaller ones). Maybe my opinion is partially the result of being a butt lover! I'll take a nice ass any day over a huge cock. :-)

huge, small, average, whatever. As long as the guy attached to it is nice enough, i don't care. I have had a 13 inch wrist fat cock up inside me very comfortably...after about a half hour of working it in. and then a 5 incher that killed me and all manner of combinations of size and comfort, from all different kinds of men.
Again as long as the owner is nice, clean and sane......JUST FUCK ME ALREADY!
iT IS A SHAME TO HAVE THESE INTERLOCKING BODIES AND NOT...INTERLOCK!

I think Tina Turner said "whats love got to do with it" maybe.